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 Post subject: A Note About Field Reports
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:16 am 
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Notes from the field can be wonderfully informative about the invertebrates that have gathered us all here to the ATS message boards. Unfortunately, people who are passionate about the conservation of these amazing animals are not alone in their ability to view the information on this website.

Please keep this in mind when posting locality data from the field. Sadly, an unscrupulous individual with this information in hand can easily wipe out an entire population. Please feel free to share the general locations, but try to keep it vague enough that your exact field location cannot be determined.

We are lucky enough to be a gathering place for researchers who are in the process of studying range and density of some of these animals. Should one of these people contact you, by ALL means share your knowledge with them. Please contact any of the Board or Moderators if you have questions about this.

Lindsey


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 Post subject: Re: A Note About Field Reports
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:34 pm 
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Amen, Lindsey. Im glad you mention that. When I list out scorpion/tarantula sites, its by city name only (I even think thats too close of a call). Most of the time I just like to give state names, and not much else.

I can just see those moron collectors out there with preservative-filled 5 gallon buckets, pillaging the scorp and T populations just so they can make their stupid paperweights, belt buckles and bolo-tie thingies. :mad: :mad:


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 Post subject: Re: A Note About Field Reports
PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:43 am 
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LHP wrote:
Sadly, an unscrupulous individual with this information in hand can easily wipe out an entire population.


I agree that it is good to be aware that anybody has access to this site. I realize that this post was probably not meant to start a debate, that it is a guideline. So if you find my response too argumentative, please remove it.

I am probably really naive, but I find the quoted statement hard to believe. Is there any documentation of an entire population being wiped out by one unscrupulous individual? Especially easily! It takes a lot of work to find some of these creatures and a lot more hard work to find every single individual in a given area. I have GPS locations of many tarantula burrows, and I still find it difficult to find them again with the 16-25 foot accuracy (maybe I need a better GPS).

I could see if the animal in question is isolated in a few hidden habitat islands. However I see nothing wrong with location information given even in exact coordinates of a common or widespread species. I would bet there are some species that exact location can be known, but that the conditions required for surface activity are so specific, exact location would be of little value.

This is all my opinion and I have no documentation to back it up. I am happy to follow this guideline and my response was not intended to be disrespectful.

Brian Nielsen


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 Post subject: Re: A Note About Field Reports
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:31 am 
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I would have to agree with both Lindsey and Brian, here. Lindsey's point is an excellent, and so is Brian's. With regard to Steve and people raping a locality for profit, however, he's right and we must be cautious. Yes, researchers like me do have a tendency to collect oodles of specimens in a locality, but we know when we have enough for our sample size and more often than not skip over many after we reach what we feel is a good series. We did that numerous times in Mexico, even with undescribed species in the nitidulus group of Vaejovis (they were EEVERYwhere!).

Brian's point supports this (or vice-versa) that a given locality is within a huge population, even on a montane island or even with the seemingly rare Superstitionia donensis (extremely difficult to find EXCEPT after a rain when they are out en masse!) or Serradigitus spp. (which are rare only because of their habitat preference, extremely reclusive, fast and agile, and skiddish, run at the slightest bump of something bigger than they!).

Anyway, I would think it would be most prudent to only give out good locality data privately. Except for something as ubiquitous as Centruroides vittatus. Grab all you want of those. :p


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 Post subject: Re: A Note About Field Reports
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:57 am 
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Kari McWest wrote:
, but we know when we have enough for our sample size and more often than not skip over many after we reach what we feel is a good series. We did that numerous times in Mexico, even with undescribed species in the nitidulus group of Vaejovis (they were EEVERYwhere!).

Anyway, I would think it would be most prudent to only give out good locality data privately. Except for something as ubiquitous as Centruroides vittatus. Grab all you want of those. :p


Me and Warren walked by plenty scorpions and only took photos in on trip in Phoenix. Anyhow I just dont care much for the pet industry that does without true regard of their captives or their habitats. But some may feel my ideas on that stuff are a little extreme.

Zach



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 Post subject: Re: A Note About Field Reports
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:58 pm 
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i am glad this post was made. sometimes i am naive to the fact that there are people out there that don't care for our little buddies like we do. I always get upset when someone says, "I love scorps!" and then they have a store that just sells dead ones :( i will keep in mind not to uncover specifics !!!:D to keep our buddies safe


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 Post subject: Re: A Note About Field Reports
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 9:33 pm 
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LHP wrote:
Notes from the field can be wonderfully informative about the invertebrates that have gathered us all here to the ATS message boards. Unfortunately, people who are passionate about the conservation of these amazing animals are not alone in their ability to view the information on this website.

Please keep this in mind when posting locality data from the field. Sadly, an unscrupulous individual with this information in hand can easily wipe out an entire population. Please feel free to share the general locations, but try to keep it vague enough that your exact field location cannot be determined.

We are lucky enough to be a gathering place for researchers who are in the process of studying range and density of some of these animals. Should one of these people contact you, by ALL means share your knowledge with them. Please contact any of the Board or Moderators if you have questions about this.

Lindsey

Hi,

I think if the 'unscrupulous' desired locality data that desperately that they would simply pick-up any of the papers detailing US scorps and use the locality data published in those papers to locate populations - some with handy GPS coordinates. I've also found that when inquiring about scorpion localities that wildlife officials and officers and local residents are generally only too glad to point you in the right direction to collect a nice bunch of scorps! LOL

Luc


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 Post subject: Re: A Note About Field Reports
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:25 pm 
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I write quite detailed field trips (Mexico), and see no point in being secret about where I have been walking.

Where does one draw the line? Can I mention a town? Probably not, because one can just visit the town and ask about scorpions. Main city? Then I can't mention how long the trip took to get to a town. Also, I can't make landscape photos, or even photos of plants, stones, etc. because those all give a lot of information of where I am walking. Rivers? Skip it. Hills? Forget it. So it would reduce my writing to close-up photos of some species and a vague indication (east of Xalapa, or maybe even: in the state of Veracruz). And I have to be careful what's in the photo with the species. The stone itself might provide hints, as do other animals living under the stone, as do the structure of the ground. Also, one has to limit himself / herself to one species exclusively, because two species might provide too many hints. So to do it right, I might end up taking photos of a single species on a white piece of paper.

Sounds too complicated to me.

And for what?

People who want to find certain species will get them anyway. They contact local people, and just ask around. I've had quite some request for sending Mexican scorpions, tarantulas, etc. on another board, even when I started to use a signature stating I don't trade. So I doubt that my field reports provide "maps for smugglers" as someone stated some time ago. They already have the maps. Either by social engineering (contacting people who know), or by studying published papers on species. Like Luc mentioned, some provide extremely specific details.

Being secretive might sound like a great idea at first, but at close inspection, in my opinion its futile.

Finally, while I feel guilty when I take 3 scorpions from a lava field, "progress" has no problem by creating a two-lane highway cutting through the same lava field. I am afraid that the biggest thread in Mexico to scorpions (and all life) are humans, especially the ones that dump garbage everywhere.


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 Post subject: Re: A Note About Field Reports
PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 11:49 pm 
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Your opinion is in the minority. Lazy people who just want to pick up a hundred Aphonoplema to sell to Europe for greater prices than Poecilotheria will not just find colonies.

What you do in Mexico is your business, but it's a federal law that keeps folks, hopefully, from grabbing tarantulas down there and bringing them to the US. Not every country has that same opinion either...

After all my time in the hobby, I'd never openly provide a locality of any tarantula on the internet. After all my time as a biologist, I'd never openly provide a locality of any tarantula on the internet. After leading field trips for years, I'd never provide a locality on the internet... get the picture?



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 Post subject: Re: A Note About Field Reports
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 3:40 am 
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[quote="John Bokma"]

John, you are, of course, entitled to post almost anything you want in your blogs or on your website but as you stated requests for specimens, etc are common since you joined a forum.
The original post in this thread was a warning that this forum is easily accessible and that by posting exact locality information, that information may be used by some for unscrupulous purposes. Simple.

Ollie


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 Post subject: Re: A Note About Field Reports
PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 5:00 am 
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Location: New Mexico
Here's an analogy:

You have a bicycle that you have to sometimes leave in a public place. A well-equipped and determined bicycle thief can steal your bike no matter how good your lock is. Does that mean you should just leave it unlocked?

Of course not. Most theives aren't well eqpuiped and determined. They'll leave the bike with the good lock alone and look for an easier target. There's still a chance that your bike could get stolen, but it is greatly reduced if the bike is locked.

And that's all this is about. It's true that all the information one needs to find these localities is already out there, but that doesn't mean we need to make it easy for the wrong person to find it by posting it here.

We're not expecting total secrecy, or secrecy at all. We just don't want maps, specific directions and GPS coordinates. Saying "I found this scorpion east of Tucson" is pefectly accedptable. Anything posted here may be viewed hundreds of times by absolutely anybody.We can't, of course, control what happens off-list, nor do we want to. But we can control what we leave out for public consumption.

Wade


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