I am referring to the spider as "her", I have no idea if it's a she or a he but using "it" or "the sick tarantula" is too confusing or too long.
I got a few opinions from a few other people and it seems it's some pesticides/chemicals or parasites. I researched on the internet and only found one reference to something similar and I figure people might learn. If someone has input please share (help is always welcome).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcQBrL3m ... ure=relmfu

Symptoms:
I fed my G. pulchra the 18th of June 2012 and it ate the whole cricket, then two days , the 22nd of June 2012 I offered a second round of crickets and it accepted. I left for work and came back and I noticed something very wrong with my G. pulchra. It was madly rubbing it's eyes/carapace area with its legs, I don't know if it was voluntary or not , and she was flexing out its chelicerae and getting into a "reverse" death curl and its legs when flexing upwards and her pedipals seem stuck rolled underneath her. She only supports herself with its back legs and you can see them twitch, but not like a spasm but more like it wouldn't be able to support its weight and the legs were weakening. Her spasms weren't like twitches but more like "long" muscles spasms very similar to muscle dystrophy in humans though the muscle jams/blocks/spasms aren't permanent.

It showed those symptoms about 12 hours after the feeding.







Background:
I quickly put her in an ICU and ran the shower on super hot. I posted on another forum and the general opinions were that it is pesticide exposure probably for the feeder, the second opinion was that it might be parasitical in nature and one of the opinions were that it might be it was too moist in the enclosure.

I disagree that the set up is too wet, the G. pulchra is housed in a delicup with 3 inches of straight peat moss and an inch from the ground to the lid. The lid has a lot of ventilation holes and it has a bottle cap as a water dish that I do not overflow (unless the spider spills it). I use a syringe to leave droplets on the side of the enclosure every 2-3 days and I directly inject the bottom of the substrate directly with 2-3cc's of water once a week or so.

I also have difficulty believing that it might be exposure to chemicals or pesticides. First my collection shows no signs of anything wrong including another one of the 4 G. pulchra I purchased and kept in identical condition which a similar molt cycle and feeding habits. Also after I buy the crickets I keep them 24 hours before feeding my collection. I feed two rounds at a 5 day interval every 2 or 3 weeks from the same batch of crickets which none have shown any signs of any illness.

Feeding schedule:
I offer food every 2-3 weeks during which I buy enough crickets for two rounds of feeding at a 5 day interval. I purchased this Grammostola pulchra along with 3 others on the 13th of July 2011 it accepted food and ate: 14th of Jun 2011, 22nd of Jun 2011, 30th of Jun 2011, 13th of Jul 2011, 19th of Jul 2011, 30th of Jul 2011, 9th of Aug 2011, 5th of Sep 2011, 15th of Sep 2011, 16th of Sep 2011, 12th of Oct 2011, 30th of Dec 2011, 19th of Apr 2012, 18th of Jun 2012 and the 22nd of Jun 2012.

Molt history:
It first molted the 17th of Jul 11 then the 26th of Aug 11, the 12th of Feb 2012 and finally the 25th of May 2012.

Treatment:
When the spider was sick, I initially put it in a regular ICU turned off all the lights in my bathroom and proceeded to let the shower run on ultra hot. It was in a very bad state and I gently nudged to on it back and it stayed that way and offered a drop of water which the spider did not drink and I then put her in a nice and dark drawer.

24 hours later I noted that it pooped and had some very slight improvement but not enough to get happy about so I decided that if indeed poisoning or parasites were in cause I had to treat it somehow. I decided on using a dryer ICU with about 15 layers of paper towels and a lot of ventilation holes. I bought distilled water and activated carbon (my boyfriend is a biochemist and he said IF it was poisoning to use it for the decontamination step). I put her in a big drawer and created ventilation paths so I could use a fan without directly blowing it on the spider while creating strong ventilation while being able to keep it in a dark and calm area. I also put two bottles filled with hot water a safe distance from the ICU but enough to raise them temperature of 2 degree (to 25 c). I moistened the paper towels and filled the shallow water dish with distilled water.

3 days later (today) update:
Now it has been about 24 hours later (three days after it started getting sick) and the spider is showing big signs of improvements, it is not out of the woods but there is a lot less flexing and spasms and the spider is able to move about, even try to run away from me. I let the spider escape on my bed so I could film an updated video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awnGqpQjRkM (Sorry for the video quality, I only have manual focus and it's hard while holding the camera and a flash light).

Future treatment:
I am conservatively optimistic but it is not even close from being out of the woods and I will treat with activated carbon either aggressively if it goes very bad, mildly if there aren't more improvements in 24 to 48 hours or conservatively if the spider has improved enough to go back in a clean and new regular set-up.

To aggressively treat I would powder the activated carbon and powder the bottom of the ICU with it generously and directly powder the spider in big quantities and then I will be wiping it off with a q-tip dipped in distilled water. And I will try to give it a drop of distilled water and activate carbon to drink by putting the spider on its back.

To mildly treat the spider I will powder the ICU and the spider in small quantities and moisten the paper towels a bit more and put the ICU into the bathroom with the shower running on ultra hot.

To conservatively treat the spider I will use a very small quantity of activated carbon directly on the spider and mix a good amount of it in the substrate.

I read your post on AB but did not comment there. In any case, there is nothing to indicate parasitism. This is often the "default" for hobbyists who do not have extensive time in the hobby, nor are biologists. If you see anything around the mouth, get back to us.

Spastic movements can be caused by several factors including high temperature heat stresses, toxin exposure, dehydration, and a plethora of biological issues. Sadly, except addressing dehydration and temperature, everything else is out of our hands. If it's toxins or biological issues, it will either work out or it will not. There really is very little we can do. And please do not get me wrong, I think it completely sucks that we know nothing about tarantula physiology. But at the end of the day, our hobby is much smaller than even hermit crab keepers, thus no research is done.

As for your charcoal suggestion for some detoxification, the exoskeleton and cuticle evolved to keep water IN, so I am unsure of what positive effect you'll gain, although all that stress could slow down the "healing" process.

If I were you, I'd return the animal to it's normal enclosure, and place that enclosure somewhere around 80F and dark. I would limit the stress and hope things work out. I know it's weak, but all of us are ignorant, but that animal has several million years of biology on its side. Also, I would check with the place you bought the feeders from. Find out if they have rodents, and if those rodents have been treated for mites in house. Many pet stores gas their rodents with dichlorvos to control mites, but the insecticide adheres to everything, and can result in these symptoms.

Good luck.

In addition, now that I've checked that other thread on AB...

As improvements are occurring, and this is not happening with the other animals, I am still leaning towards an exposure of some sort. It does not have to be a pesticide, solvents can have the same effect, such as those found in spray paint. I'm not suggesting a spray paint exposure, only pointing out the multitude of things which can cause a tarantula to loose normal muscle control.

Since it will come up "DKS" is a hobby coined term that basically means "unexplained spastic moments, which we're desperate to put a name on". Your reading, from your post, indicates you're aware of this, but some folks seems to attach that label and think it explains things. Very similar to blaming parasites for everything else.

In any case, please keep us up to date here as well. Many people only hit one forum, not many, but others can learn from your experience and certainly your attention to details and notes.

Thanks. OH! We also have a few Canadian members here as well, they might be able to clue you in on possible cockroach sources and legalities.

Christian

Thank you for the reply, I decided to post this in many places, who knows maybe someone will find something useful. (Is posting on both forums okay?)

I've examined the spider very closely for anything that could indicate anything visually wrong with it and found nothing suggesting parasites (no white deposits, mites...) so this is why I went with the chemical exposure theory although I think it's very unlikely one spider would show symptoms and not the others, it could be the spider equivalent of indigestion for all I/we know.

The place has no live animals for sale except for fish. No rats, reptiles, tarantula's, cats or dogs. (I think they had birds once?)

The lack of study and knowledge is frustrating and anything else is guess work. What works for us would probably not work for tarantula's, it's the equivalent of comparing humans to maple trees.

As for "DSK" my opinion is that it's a symptom of an illness and it's possible that many illnesses have this as a symptom, it's a name for "my spider has uncontrollable twitches", that's just my opinion though. And the many videos I have seen labelled "DSK", the twitching is fast little twitches and no coordination VS my G. pulchra which had longer spasms which it seemed to able try to control.

The activated carbon was my boyfriends idea, he's a biochemist, of course he knows nothing about tarantula's and he said himself that externally it shouldn't be a problem to use, but internally he has no idea. It would really be in case the spider goes down hill and there's no more options left. And I do agree it would stress the tarantula and it's one the reasons why I didn't do it. I don't bother the spider except to check up on it every 6 to 12 hours. It's currently in it's drawer at about 25 c, I will check up on it in a couple of hours to see progress or lack of it.

I will move it to it's regular set-up in 12 hours if the spider is still doing good. I will keep documenting on here and on the other forum I posted.

PS. And YES! if any Canadians would know anything about roaches PM me!

I checked up on my G. pulchra and noticed she pooped again, the second I opened the ICU it ran out onto my hand. It will be going back to it's normal set-up tonight that I will place in a warm and dark drawer.

And I forgot to mention, last night I put a tall bottle cap (out of reach for the spider) filled with activated carbon and distilled water and changed it again when I cleaned the ICU.

And the activated carbon I bought was for aquarium, there's nothing else added in there and it comes in small (a bit smaller than .5 inch) pieces. I will use a small vial with holes in it and fill it with the carbon and drop it into the new set-up, if there's something in the air it could take care of it I guess and won't stress the spider.

Sorry for the quality I keep forgetting that lens has an AF function and it's hard to manually focus and hold the camera with one hand.





I know it might still go downhill but right now I can say I'm relieved that it's doing better and I think it might make it. It was so bad when it first was sick I can't believe it's actually 90% better. It's one tough Grammostola pulchra sling.

I will keep updating here and on another forum. Maybe someone will find it useful.

I am late (again) to chip in here, but it seems like you and Christian have things under control.

What I would like to highly commend you for is the excellent report, observation, research and action.
A case like this that is so well documented will help a lot of people down the road, and adds knowledge for everyone reading it.

Thanks and I am glad the little one seems to be on the road to recovery.

Thank you!

Even if late your posts, and everyone else's are more than welcome.

I just came back from work and checked up on the G. pulchra, it seemed to be doing great and I decided it was time to put it back into a regular enclosure. I added some activated carbon into the substrate, just in case, and it did seem to be into a "stress" pose (huddled up) but with the constant improvement I decided it was time. I'm leaving the set-up in the drawer and will add some hot water bottle to get the temp up t around 24-25 c. If it does well tomorrow morning I will keep it in there, if not, I have an ICU set up prepared just in case.

I will not be taking pictures or filming for a a few days to give it some rest and not to stress it more and as soon as its "back to its normal self" I will film an update and try to make a step-by-step of what I did in neater order than a bunch of posts.

I am happy to hear your little T is improving. It is very frustrating indeed when one of our babies gets ill and we're unable to provide any "real" help. Some day maybe that will change. You did a wonderful job and I'm sure your baby is very grateful for it.

@ Patrick

Thanks for your thoughts, it seems to have recovered 110%, it's actually faster and has a bit more of attitude; bolts out of its deli up. Great for pictures though.

The only sign that something was wrong is on each side of its abdomen, because of all the flexing and spasming and rubbing it seems to have somewhat of a bald patch, I'm glad it's the only thing "wrong" with it.

I didn't want to stress it more and only snapped a few pics. I will filmed it any next time I'm doing some maintenance.

As you can see, it has a "bald" spot, it's on both sides.


Here's the same picture but from closer:



And here are some more pictures of the spider looking good!







I still can't believe it didn't die.

I actually had 2 accidental deaths and 2 very close calls, all with slings in the last couple of months; I didn't crush a crickets head good enough and it bit and killed my P. murinus and an A. versi died of a bad molt (got stuck and there was nothing I could do). I saved a .5 inch A. avic sling got completely stuck in its molt and I removed it with tweezers and water. And a G. rosea sling was on its back, popped its carapace and fell 2 inches from its molting mat and finished molting 5 hours later.

I will make a compilation video and put everything I did for it together in a clear way so it could eventually help someone and save a spider.

Patience often pays off with these animals. As for the current situation, I'd back off on feeding just a bit.

I know I'm breaking at least one international treaty, about six different laws, and maybe several forum rules here, but it appears that the ATS message boards do not have an official classified or For Sale/Trade forum. So, I feel justified in this.

Arachnoboards and several other message boards have Classified forums. You might go to these to find Canadian tarantula dealers. (Note: As I type this Arachnoboards is down, presumably because of the weather disaster in the eastern USA. Hence, I can't supply you with a direct link. Please be patient. I'm sure they'll be back up as soon as they can.) Those dealers might be able to help you.

It is my understanding that possibly Environment Canada, certainly Agriculture Canada have declared all millipedes and cockroaches (and a bunch of other arthropods too) not native to Canada as persona non grata, a.k.a., illegal. Presumably this is because they're afraid of them getting loose and becoming agricultural or ecological pests. Thus, possessing them, much less importing, selling, trading them, etc. is forbidden and opens you to some pretty serious legal penalties.

Having said that, there is no such thing as the Great Canadian Cockroach Police (GCCP), and there are people in Canada who are keeping exotic roaches for animal food. And, if they're smart enough to keep their mouths shut, they can get away with it with little chance of getting caught or harming either the agricultural industry or the ecology if they're careful to only keep those roaches that have proven to be "safe." However, I would urge you to not try this. The hobby doesn't need that black eye if you get caught.

The other important question is, "Is it worth the risks and effort?" Personally, I think not. Roaches and crickets are so closely related to each other that they're almost duplicates. And, both have proven to be nearly equal, complete nutritional sources. (If you want gourmet diversity, at least pick an insect from a different order!) And, the tarantulas don't seem to care what their prey is. Just keep the family cat away from the T. blondi cage! (Do tarantulas burp after a heavy meal?)

Besides, spending the time and effort, minimal though it may be, on raising cockroaches diverts you from your original goal: Keeping tarantulas. What is that old saw?

"When you're up to your *** in alligators...
it's difficult to remember that...
your original goal was to drain the swamp!"

Unless you live in someplace like Inuvik where they may only be considered a late summer, wild meat delicacy by your tarantula, use crickets from your friendly, neighborhood pet shop and get on with the hobby of keeping tarantulas.

Go to "Board index" to access the classified section.

At first I wasn't sure if they were in fact illegal to keep and I did some research and came to that conclusion and someone PM'ed me confirming that it is indeed illegal in Canada and I abandoned the idea of keeping them.

A lot of people on different forums said I should keep cockroaches based on what happened.

Crickets work great as feeders for my T's and also eels and other fish I own so I don't really want to change, and I don't want to be keeping another anything for the moment. Besides more or less of my collection are slings and I don't see how feeding would work.

There's also mealworms I could feed them but the slings just run up their enclosures until I take it out (I'm not talking live, but even a cut in half dead mealworm) they run for their lives but even the smaller tarantulas tackle pummelled crickets.

I don't even want to attempt to breed crickets, mealworms or cockroaches, even if the care is minimal it's not something I want to get into. I don't mind going every two weeks to buy feeders, but with the roaches being illegal I don't see where I could get a stable supply even if I'd want one.

Also it takes time and "care" to breed or keep a colony of anything, even cockroaches and I just don't have that time.

I highly suspect the pet shop I buy the crickets from gets them at the same place where my Tarantula dealers get them, I will try to get the crickets directly from them from now on, they're about a 5 minutes drive from me (and so is my Tarantula dealer) and the closest pet shop is 2 minutes away (where I bought my last cricket batch). So 3 extra minutes is worth it. It's the general opinion of the boards that the crickets were responsible, I'm not saying they are, but the majority of people think so, with this said I will do my best to avoid buying them from the same place.


I will do another feeding round next week and I will not offer food to the G. pulchra I will wait to the next round (in 3 weeks) before offering food. It's still in it's dark drawer and I just let it be, only check up on it once a day and make sure it has water. It seems enough in good shape to bolt out of the cup onto my hand (and snap pictures!) so that's a good sign I think! Plus it's quite plump (actually most of my slings are plain fat) so it doesn't need food for now.

Oh! My bad! I didn't step far enough backwards. Sorry. I'll know better until next time I get a chance to break the rules.

Hello again!

So I'm very happy, the sick G. pulchra molted today, everything went fine and the spider is in top shape and doing really good. And, I think it's a she! It's about two inches right now (more or less) I didn't see anything on the old exoskeleton, it's really tiny.

I will make a video when she hardens up for now I won't stress her out, one picture was enough.

Is it really a she or am I seeing things?

I'm so excited right now, I can't believe it made it!

This so made my week.

I presume this is diagonal leg span (DLS), not body length?



I can't tell what your first photo is supposed to be showing us. There's nothing for me to establish a frame of reference from. Sorry.

That portion of the second photo that we really need to see (the epigastric furrow) is slightly out of focus, so it's difficult to make a firm decision. If you're showing us the OUTSIDE of the exuvia, it's the wrong side, but I can barely see something attached to the other side of the epigastric furrow that might be a bursa copulatrix. In which case it would be a female.

It it's the inside of the exuvia, it's a male with the faint discoloration merely being a slight variation in either the color or the thickness of the cuticle.

Here is a very good thread on sexing tarantulas. And, another fairly good thread. And another.



Congratulations! I know it's been a tough go.

Enjoy your little, 8-legged survivor!

I agree with Stan, do the same great shot as in the second, but on the other side. It's good to know your patience paid off.

I can't re take the shot I mangled whatever was left from it and it was the only thing I managed to capture, which isn't great. It was too small and got obliterated (I'm as delicate as a nail gun) I should have been more careful with it. The second picture does look pretty bad I'm not sure what I was trying to do, it made sense yesterday. I could have sworn I saw a "flap" on there, ugh wishful thinking and not enough sleep with too much caffeine = excitability over shadows.

Sexing (and picture) fail on my part. I need to work on my photography, sexing and exuviae handling skills.

Still very happy he's alive, and hopefully he matures out and gets to make tons of babies. I have 3 others so hoping for at least one female, they're so stunning, I'm more attracted to OW's but G. pulchra's are my favourite!

And the most important thing I forgot to do is to thank everyone for their input and help, it was and still is very appreciated, everyone is so great on here. Thanks for helping me keep my little dude alive (and making me realized that he is in fact a he!) you're all awesome.

Congrats on your little ones recovery.

Whenever I sex a molt, I drape it over a small teaspoon, one of those half size ones, with the exterior down. If the exuvium is dry, I Moisten it with a bit of alcohol or glycerin before handling it too much. Once it is on the teaspoon, you can take all the pictures you want from different angles or with different lighting angles. You can even reconstruct a damaged exuvium to a certain extent. BTW I hold the teaspoon steady in a small vise like fly fishermen use to tie flies.